Ep3 Bike James - How a Fitness Coach Exposed the $2 Billion Clipless Pedal Lie (And Built a Business Destroying Sacred Cows)

James Wilson  0:00  
Everyone was giving me the same feedback. Like, dude, these things are amazing. Like, I had one dude who literally refused to give me the prototypes back. He's like, I cannot go back to riding my old pedals after trying these things. How much do you want for them? Give me a number. I'm like, 400 bucks. He's like, sold and freaking gave me $400

Scott Groves  0:16  
cash. Your very first sale was, like, your second or third pair of prototypes.

James Wilson  0:20  
Yeah. Like, if somebody's willing to just they refuse to give me the prototypes back because they don't want to go back. I'm like, I'm onto something here.

Scott Groves  0:29  
Welcome to Henderson HQ. This is the podcast where you get all the stories behind the businesses that make our community tick. Don't forget to subscribe to our weekly newsletter. Hey. Scott groves, with the Henderson HQ podcast. On today's podcast, if you sell a physical product, or you're in E commerce, or you have to build relationships to make your business successful, which I think pretty much all business owners have to, you have to watch the entire episode today with bike James, my friend who owns a company called pedaling innovations, he makes a physical product, which is a brand new take on pedals for all kinds of bikes, and even if you're not in the cycling world. If that doesn't sound interesting to you, I promise you, James is going to give you some business tips on how to grow an email list, how to be in relationship with your clients, and how to run a successful business. More so than just the metrics of what's my click rate, what's my enter rate, what's my per ticket spend, just really great lessons for any business owners, especially people that are thinking of starting something new. So check out my friend Mike James and his story about Catalyst pedals. Hey, ladies and gentlemen, it's Scott groves here with the Henderson HQ podcast talking to business owners like you. And today, we're actually interviewing a friend of mine, James Wilson, who's the owner of a company called pedaling innovations, which you're gonna figure out what that is. It's a pretty wild journey, and I can't believe he makes a living selling these pedals right here, which, if you're not watching the video, you're listening are giant, and we'll hear why those are. But another business owner out here, out of Henderson, he does e commerce, which is a little different than the other business owners we've interviewed. We're very intimately familiar with each other, because he's a black belt and kicks my ass at jiu jitsu every day, and so I like literally drink his sweat. And there's a certain bond when you're rolling on the ground with other men that you might have with other people. So I don't know this this podcast might end up being not safe for work or not safe for the children, but we'll figure it out. Our kids also went to school together for a while, and yeah, just excited to have you on man. So tell us, what is a pedaling innovation?

James Wilson  2:30  
Pedaling innovation? Well, it's a it is an outside the box, which is a term that gets used a little bit to the point that it kind of doesn't mean anything, but it's just my different take based on my background, on the problem of, how does properly support your foot on the bike, on a mountain bike or street bike, all bikes can you bike? Yeah. I mean, my background is in mountain biking, and so a lot of my customers come from mountain biking, but really we've got people that use them on road bikes, on BMX, on, you know, trikes. I mean, if you're if your bike has a pedal, then this is the best way to support your foot on the bike.

Scott Groves  3:10  
Okay, when I first saw this, I was like, this thing is giant. I'm gonna destroy my shin on this thing. And then you brought my son and I a pair. And it really does make a difference. So was this, like, science first and then you created a product, or did you carry a product and be like, I think this might work. Let's try it out.

James Wilson  3:29  
Well, yeah. Well, it was kind of a little the product came after the science. So, like, if we're going, like, in the way, way back machine, right, when I first started mountain biking, back in 2000 you know, it's gotten better. But back then, like you were told, man, you need to get on clipless pedals as quickly as possible. The pedals that like your shoe actually like clicks into and attaches to. I hate those things. Yeah, those things are terrible. Everybody hates them, but they think they're the only ones, so they don't say anything about it. So it's kind of like an emperor's new clothes sort of problem. But like, once one person goes like, Man, I don't really like these things, all of a sudden all these other people are like, Man, I don't like mine either. I thought I was the only one, but it's

Scott Groves  4:09  
because I had, I had clips on my pedals when I was doing a lot of road biking, and they're terrifying, right? You have to make an emergency stop, and I know you get used to it. Oh, you just, you just pivot your foot, slide out. It's super easy. But like in an emergency, you like, pivot out. You slide out. You've got this little wedge on your foot. So when you try to plant on the ground like you normally do, you slide you each I've seen so many adults, like in slow formation, in fast formation and emergency, they either can't clip out and they just keel over, or they clip out, they try to quickly put their foot on the ground, and they almost tear their hamstring, like, going out. So do they use clipped in pedals and mountain biking also? Oh, yeah, that seems more terrifying.

James Wilson  4:48  
Oh, it's totally terrifying. Yeah, no, but that's the again, you gotta there, man. It's wild. Like, when you start peeling back the layers of all of this, it's crazy. Like, so, yeah, like you're. You're told that, like, these clipless pedals are gonna give you, like, 30% more efficiency, and like, they're the only way to like pedal, and only way to use, like, all the muscles in your leg and all this stuff. And so, you know, I first started riding, I thought, like, Oh yeah, okay. Like, I'll try that. So, you know, I came up riding a BMX bike. I didn't race or anything like that, but I think every kid our generation had a fucking bike to cruise around the neighborhood stuff. And so I knew I like flat pedals, and so I got just a regular pair of flats to start out in, and I really enjoyed it. Had fun just really enjoying mountain biking. But you know, they're like, Oh, you need to get on clip lists as soon as you can. So I'd gotten a pair of clip lists, and what I would do is I would practice riding around the street, on them, and, man, I spent hours practicing clipping in and out, and, like, trying to get, you know, good at that. And I had the proverbial fall over to stop sign moment, right? Like, I'm actually with Chile when we were dating, and we're, like, out riding, and we come to a stop sign. And like, I knew that, like, I needed to get unclipped, and I was still fumbling with it, and I fell over at the stop sign. And I think there was somebody that drove by and laughed at me or something. And I was like, Man, fuck this shit. And I'm having way more fun on my flat pedals than I am these clipless pedals. And so, like, I started riding in Santa Barbara, California, which has some pretty, like, technical, gnarly trails. And I was like, man, if that had happened to me on the trail, I would have fucking died, like, I would have been really, really hurt. And so I was like, I don't want to deal with this. Like, I'm having fun on my flat pedals. I had a buddy who rode, and he was a really good rider, and he was on flat so I was like, I know I can get at least as good as him, right? Like, I'm not as good as him, so it's not the pedals. Like I know I can, like, raise my level up to least where he's at. And so I'm just gonna use flat pedals until I feel like my pedals are, what are holding me back, like I'm riding with someone. I'm like, Dude, we're the same skill and fitness level, but you're kicking my ass because you got clipless and I don't. And so why do they call them clipless if they clip in, right? So this is again, bike history. 101, remember the toe clips, the little like cages, and then you would actually, like, have a strap that you would strap. So those are, yeah, toe clips. And so the clap, I call those cages, right? Yeah, cages, whatever. Like, technically, those are toe clips. And so when the clipless pedals came out, that's why they're called clipless, because they don't have a toe clip. Oh, my goodness. And so, yeah, so they're like, this really is, like, the emperor has no clothes. Because, like, even we were saying that, I was like, is James wrong? Because you do clip into the bridles? Why are they called clipless? Yeah, so now there's actually, like, a move to, like, start calling them, like, clip in pedals, or clip pedals, because it is confusing. If you don't understand the history of them, then it does sound like what you know, why are you calling clipless pedals? But, um, so, yeah, but that's so I started doing that. And then, but, man, I just, I had just kept getting better and better, and never really got to the point where I felt like my pedals were holding me back. And then in that time I got into I started MTB string training systems, which was my mountain bike strength training company, and used to have that, oh yeah, yeah. We still got that bike. James.com Check that out. And so, yeah, I started that back in 2005 so, like, basically, that was, like, I, you know, I started mountain biking. I knew from my history as a track athlete that like strength and conditioning was one of the fastest ways and best ways to, like, improve your performance. And so I started researching, like Strength and Conditioning for mountain biking. And dude, I couldn't find anything, like, literally nothing. And like, the little bit that I could find was, like, just bodybuilding BS in disguise. It was like three sets of thin on the leg press and leg Crow, leg extension. I'm like, Man, I know that's not how athletes train. I know how athletes train, and that ain't it. And so I'm like, Well, I'm gonna, like, just apply what I know, you know. And I was a, you know, professional fitness coach at the time, you know, I'd worked for the international sports sciences Association, like, one of the major certification groups out there. So, like, I had like, a really, like, strong education and good background in strength training stuff. And so like, I started applying that to mountain biking, and a little bit I knew about it at the time. And, you know, I started seeing better results. I had a couple riding buddies who are working off me, and they're like, you know, they're seeing good results. And so I, like, had this idea that I'm like, Man, I wonder if anybody else would be interested in what I'm doing. And so I started my first website in 2005 and I still don't know where those first email subscribers came from. Somehow people found me and started signing up for my email list. And I was like, Oh, shit. So I, like, started sending out weekly newsletters, which I've pretty much done almost every week since, man, or 19 years, you've been 20 years, man, mountain bike strength training, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, you know, there's a lot of people in the mountain bike industry, like, know me as bike James. That's, like, my, I call him my Tyler Durden, right? He's this personality that like he's not really me, but he's kind of this embodiment of me. Some parts are exaggerated and stuff. But so I'd started MTV strength training systems, and through that, I started working with some professional mountain bikers, and at one point I was training the Yeti World Cup team like Yeti cycles and call. Colorado, they had a World Cup team, and I got hooked up with them. And a lot of those guys, pretty much all of them, rode clipless pedals. And so I thought, well, if I'm training riders that ride clipless pedals, and clipless pedals give you an advantage. How do they give you like what's happening there? Because I want to be able to create training programs that would maybe enhance what clipless pedals are doing for you. So I start like researching what is the actual science behind clipless pedals? And people act like you can just throw a stick and hit five studies that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that clipless pedals are better than flats and they do all this stuff for you. Dude, I couldn't find anything. There was no science to support clipless pedals actually being better than flat pedals.

Scott Groves  10:39  
So I remember, when I was a kid in the 90s, it was like rock shocks was putting a ton of money behind sponsored riders, like by 2005 2008 whatever. There's a lot of money in mountain biking. And you're saying even at that point, nobody had sat down and put somebody on like a stationary cycle to prove no, they did that the clipless pedals could actually create more torque or power.

James Wilson  11:03  
Okay, studies didn't show what they wanted them to show. And so that's where things got even weirder for me, right? So, like, I started, like, go, you know, like, I should actually did some out to my email list. I'm like, hey, if any of you guys know some science behind this stuff, I'm trying to do some research. People start sending me studies that actually, like, disproved a lot of the song, like the the theories behind clipless pedals, because one of the main things they tell you with clipless pedals is that, because your foot's attached to the pedal, you can pull up on the backstroke, and that's what gives you all the advantages, because you're able to, like, you know, create tension through the whole pedal stroke, like your push and pull, not just push and pull, right? Yeah, okay. So, like, that's what, that's what they tell you to do, is you want to push with your front foot and your back foot. You want to be actively pulled. Actively pulling up, and that's going to, like, let you create tension throughout the whole pedal stroke. Plus you're going to use all of your muscles, like you're able to, you know, use your hamstring to curl the the pedal up. And so it's just, this is the theory, right? And everybody's seen these little charts that have these little color coding for, like, when the muscles are engaged around the pedal stroke. And I found out, like, Dude, that's never been proven, like, that's all just a theory. Like, when you actually put like an EMG on a rider, and you look at how they're creating power during their pedal stroke, it looks nothing like that stupid, little, colorful chart that they're always

Scott Groves  12:16  
using. Is that because humans can't figure out how to use like, opposing muscle groups at the same time. Like, I'm just thinking about it. If I was mentally trying to, like, pull with my left hamstring as I'm pushing down with my right quad, I don't think I could change that fast enough.

James Wilson  12:31  
No, you're absolutely right. It's like, partially, it's, it's that we are designed to move a certain way. We come, you know, wired to move in a certain way and create movement a certain way. And when you try to change that, it even if, theoretically, it would be better, like trying to rewrite how the human body is wired to move, never works out, right? Like it's just that this is how it moves. And so, like your leg is designed. It's like, if you're running, walking, you know, pedaling a bike, whatever it is, it's designed to create the power on the downstroke, and then your leg just, kind of like, passively returns into position for the next like, downstrokes. Like, when you're running, you're not thinking about trying to pull your leg up, right? It just happens, right? And so, like, that's and so that's what they found, like, when they would study, you know, just like normal pedal stroke, like pedal like you want. Then they would study have one group like, push down as hard as it could, really emphasize the downstroke. Then they would have a group really emphasize pulling up on the backstroke. Then they would have a group like trying to spin circles and like you're trying to, like, create this even tension. And what they found was that the pulling up on the backstroke and the circles created less power and burned more energy. So it was less efficient than simply letting riders just pedal like they want to, yeah, and then emphasizing the downstroke, because that's how we're designed to create movement, yeah, because nobody

Scott Groves  13:54  
chooses to run a marathon backwards, no, like you're always going to have more power going forward as a human being.

James Wilson  13:59  
Yeah, that's how we're designed. It's like we're, our power comes in pushing and then pulling tends to be a reset, right? Like, if you're punching, yeah, it's a push, and then you're and then the you it just, you know, resets. The pull is not as strong as your push. And that's just the way that we're we're designed to create movement. This reminds

Scott Groves  14:17  
me of something I read in the book Shoe Dog, the Phil Knight story of, like, the founding of Nike, how there was a push, I think, in the 60s, 70s, whenever Nike was getting big, to, like, go more padding, more foam, more more support, because it'll make you more spongy, and it'll propel you forward. And then the track athletes were like, sorry, Phil, like, the more minimalist the shoe, the faster my time, because when my feet are more attached to the ground, I can create more force. So like modern track shoes, I mean, it's, it's a very, very thin amount of material between you and your foot, because humans are designed pretty uniquely to be able to run fast. What's the

James Wilson  14:53  
idea behind the whole barefoot training, barefoot running idea, right? And that was something else that I had gotten into over the years, because when I ran. Track, you know, they try to put me in orthotics, and I'm running all these, like, padded track shoes, and my knees are killing me and and so, you know, I started to realize, like, oh, it was like the shoes, like your foot is designed to move a certain way, and then if you fuck with that, you do that at your own peril, like you're going to screw up the kinetic chain, and you're going to cause problems in the foot, and so in the foot and further up into the leg, because the rest of the body's trying to compensate for that. And so, same idea, right? Like you want to, you know, have a, you know, you want to look like, how does the human body naturally move? And then how do we apply that to the bike? Like that was, always been my thought process behind training programs. But that's not how your average guy in the cycling industry looks at it, he comes up, and he's like, if I was gonna design a machine to pedal this bike, right? If I'm gonna design a robot to pedal a bike, yeah, like, having it push and pull at the exact same time would probably be more powerful and better way to do it. But that's, you know, we're not robots, right? Like, so there's a difference between, like, you know, thinking about, how would I design something to do this? Now, let's have the human body do that, versus, how does the human body naturally move? Now, let's apply that to the bike. And so that was like, you know, like, say, like, my thought process. And so that was, you know, as I started to get into the science behind it, that's what was coming out. Is like, holy shit. Like, and that's crazy thing. Like, the bike industry knows that the these studies exist. Actually, a lot of them don't, because they're they don't tell them what they want to hear, right? So they get ignored. So there is science behind the pedal stroke, there is science behind how to, you know, the best way to pedal your bike, but it gets ignored because it doesn't back up what they're trying to sell you with these, you know, clipless

Scott Groves  16:41  
pedals. Well, also these. What do these retail for on your website? 159 Okay, so these are 159 I know, you get a pair of clips, and then you got to adjust the clips. Then you got to pay for somebody to put the right millimeter of change between the clips, yeah. And then you got to constantly be replacing shoes that have clips on them. You know, bike companies get to make 1000 or 2000 or $10,000 Oh, yeah, off of riders, off the life of their career, where you're like, these things will last forever. It's 200 bucks. Yeah? So it's like, there's a real financial disincentive for bicycle for cycling companies to tell people, like, No, you can do just as well on a slightly bigger pedal.

James Wilson  17:19  
Yeah, no, there's a, there's a lot of money behind clipless pedals and so. And then you wonder, you go to a website, or you go to a magazine, and you're like, Man, why are they running articles promoting clipless pedals? And then you look on the side and you see an advertisement from Shimano, or, you know, one of these companies, you're like, Oh, these guys are paying their bills like they're not going to run articles, they're not going to put things out there that go against what these guys want them to say. See if you find the same thing in the in the fitness industry, right? Like, you know, supplements pay for these magazines and websites. So why do you think they're always running things, promoting supplements that a lot of them do not have science behind them to support them, like you find that in every industry. But it's who knew I was

Scott Groves  17:59  
going to find a new conspiracy this morning of big mountain biking, dude. There is,

James Wilson  18:02  
it is, I would call it the clipless puddle mafia. It would piss people off. I'm like, this is the truth. The clipless puddle mafia doesn't want you to hear and so, um, so, yeah. Like, that was like, my, like, the kind of my, you know that red pill moment, whatever the fuck you want to call it, yeah? Raha moment. I'm like, holy crap, man. Like we're being lied to. Not only are clipless pedals not better for you, but like the pedal stroke and the way they're telling you to pedal is actually less powerful and less efficient. Like the way that I describe it, like, remember, when riding bikes as a kid, did you ever have any problem with your pedal stroke? No, no, none. It wasn't till you became an adult and somebody came along said, hey, you know the thing you did as a kid and you had no problem with you were doing it all wrong, buddy? Like, let me tell you the right way to do this thing. It's like, dude, adults can fuck up anything, right? So, like, you look at a kid and they take like, a mid foot position. They tend to, like, center their foot over the axle, and they're just like, standing up and hammering, yeah, and they're fine. And then we get to be an adult, and they're like, Oh, you want to, like, be pushing through the ball of your foot, and you want to have your foot attached to the pedal, and you want to pull up on the backstroke and, like, it's like, man, no, that's actually, like, as far removed from the way that the foot actually works as you can get, yeah. And so, yeah. So that was, like, I said, like, the beginning of, you know, me getting into more research and finding more science and writing a bunch of articles. So eventually I came out with a I call it the flat pedal revolution manifesto. It's a free PDF download. You can Google it, still find it, but man, it changed the discussion in the mountain biking industry around flat pedals. Now, all of a sudden, people had ammunition to counter a lot of what the clipless pedal people were telling them. And so now, when you start mountain biking, you're told, start on flats. You're fine on flats. You know, like, eventually, if you get there's still this thing, like serious mountain bikers wear clipless pedals. But even that is like you see, like really good riders who are on flats. And so, you know, I like to think that I had at least a small part in changing that, that Converse. Station, but, um, but, yeah, there was, and then there was another guy I was talking to that was explaining that how we're we're misunderstanding how to position our foot on the pedal, because we're told that, like, you know, oh, when you jump, or, you know, run, you push through the ball of your foot. And so that's how you create the most power. And so you want to push through the ball of your foot on your pedal. And he was pointing out that, like, you know, why do you never push through the ball your foot in the gym? Like, we're in the gym, you're told to, like, drive through the whole foot. Like, if your heel comes off the ground, though, like, no, no, drive through your heel, keep your

Scott Groves  20:30  
foot. I mean, like, if you're dead lifting or squatting, yeah, and your heels come off the ground, you're prone for knee injuries and all

James Wilson  20:36  
kinds, exactly, exactly. Because what it is is, like, if your foot comes off what it's in contact with, then you do push through the ball of the foot. So if you're running or jumping or something like that, because your foot is breaking contact with what it's on, you do end by pushing through the ball of the foot. But if your foot does not come off what it's on, if it stays in contact the whole time, then you want to have the whole foot supported. It'd be driving through the whole foot. So that's why you look at surfers, right, whole foot on on the board. Skateboarders, whole foot on the board. Skiers, their whole foot is supported by the ski right, like you look at any other sport where they are staying in contact with what they're on, and they have their whole foot supported. But for some reason, the mountain biking industry got it in its head that we're different, and that, that we want to, like, push through the ball of the foot, and so, so that was the so between, like, the science behind, like, you know, the flat pedal, and then this insight into, like, oh, like, what's called the mid foot position, where you center your your the you want to center your arch over the axle, instead of centering the ball of the foot over the axle. And so that creates a bunch of problems when you center, like, if you're an engineer, right? And someone comes to you and says, Hey, I've got a platform that's centered on a rotating axis, and I need to apply energy into this rotating platform. Is it going to be better for me to have one pressure point where I'm trying to line it up perfectly in the center? And if it gets offline at all, it's going to start creating this, like, tipping effect, and then I'm going to have to figure out some way to secure it so it doesn't, like, come off, or do I want, like, two pressure points, one on each end, where I'm able to apply even pressure into the platform that way, right? Like, that's not even that's a no brainer. Like, you don't have to be an engineer to understand, like, why the two pressure points on either end would be a superior way to do it. But when you are putting the ball your foot, and you're leaving your heel like the back end of your arch hanging in space, that's basically what you're doing. You're using a single pressure point to put pressure into this rotating platform, and it creates all sorts of problems, right? Because that's why, like when you watch riders, their toes are pointed down, because as they're pushing in, the energy is unbalanced, and so it's creating this forward tip to the pedal. Well, how do you keep your foot from flying off when it's tipping forward? You attach your foot to the pedal. That's one answer, right? That's the bike industry's answers. That's why they started doing toe clips, and then that's what led to the evolution of clipless pedals, because if you attach your foot to the pedal, then you don't have to worry about your foot coming off with this forward toe tipping thing going on. But I had an insight one day. I was I was on the trail, and I was like, Man, why don't I need stiff soled shoes in the gym? Like, why can I go in the gym and I can lift, literally barefoot, and I can lift all this weight, but I get on my bike and my foot turns into this weak, unstable mess, and, man, I just had like, this fucking light bulb moment, like a voice pops into my head and says, Well, it's because the ground supports both ends of your arch. Like, that was the thought that, like, got me going. I was like, Oh, yeah. Like, an arch is one of the strongest forms in nature, but if you darn through our foot, well, the arch period, right? Any arch, the arch is a super strong, like a dome, right? Like an arched, yeah, structure. It's one of the strongest forms in nature. But if only if you have both ends supported, if you destabilize one end of an arch, the whole thing falls apart, right? It's and so that's that was like, why you need stiff sole shoes, right? Because you've got the back end of your arch, your heel hanging in space, and so the arch collapses. And so again, well, let's just create a stiff soled shoe. So wait just what? Just real

Scott Groves  24:04  
quick. So I understand this is why I can't believe you're the first person to do this, because the mountain biking community's answer was, okay, well, we know we can only, because of this pseudoscience, put the ball of the foot on the pedal. Yes, so to supplement for the fact that we don't want the arch breaking down because now the heel has no support. We're gonna make mountain biking shoes that have a super stiff sole, so that when James was pushing down the toe, his arch isn't disappearing because he's got the heel pushing down. They thought of all that instead of just make a bigger pedal. Yeah. Well, again, because if you're coming up in the industry, you're either the either the smartest guy I know, or the luckiest. Because, like, how were you the first person to think of this and patent

James Wilson  24:43  
it? Well, it, man, if you look at any industry, a lot of big breakthroughs came from outsiders. Because if you come up in an industry, if you come up, you know, in a field, you are told, this is how things are. And so a lot of times you don't question that, right? And so if you. Are going to make it to the top of a field. It's not by challenging the status quo, right? It's by reinforcing the status quo, right? Like we see this thing playing out with like, Egyptology right now, right? Like the old Egyptologists don't want to, like, they've written the papers like they've made their name on one way of looking at the history of Egypt, and now you've got these new discoveries coming out that's questioning that, and they are fighting it tooth and nail, because they do not want this new information to become part of the narrative, because their books look stupid Exactly, exactly, and so same thing here, right? If you came up in the cycling industry and you're working for a cycling company like you have, you've gotten there because you've towed the company line, and you have bought into what they're telling you. And so you look at a lot of stuff like, you know, like the Wright brothers were bike mechanics, right? Like, it's funny to them that Nassim taleek, Taleb guy, the guy that wrote anti fragile, yeah, he's got several books, and in one of them, he goes through and outlines, like, all of these discoveries that were made in different fields by outsiders, yeah, because they have a different perspective. And so that's what it was, is like, I didn't come up, I came up as a track athlete, right? I didn't come up as a cycling athlete, and then I had a strength training background, and then I got into mountain biking when I was, like, 24 so like, I had a different background and a different perspective than someone who's been like, you know, coming up in cycling since they were a kid. And so that's what, you know, it came to. There's a another book where good ideas come from, and he talks about this thing called the adjacent possible, which is basically where, like, eventually you you accrue enough knowledge and unique experiences that gives you a unique perspective on the world that only you can see, and then you're able to, like, peer over the edge and see, like, what is, what's that next possible thing that I can see that no one else can see, and that's basically what happened with me, is, like, my background and all the study I had done and all these things eventually brought me to this adjacent possible where I was able to, able to peer over the edge and go like, Oh, we've been fucking this up the whole time, like we need a pedal that supports both ends of our arch. So are

Scott Groves  27:10  
you like a pariah in the mountain biking industry a

James Wilson  27:13  
little bit? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been like, I said, when I say, Tyler Durden, is there, like, bike James hater pages, oh yeah, because of how dumb you are, dude. People fucking hate me, man. People hate me. And a lot of is from the flat pedal thing, right? Like, I was very vocal, like, for a long time, and I probably still am the most vocal flat pedal advocate out there, and so I'm the only one online who is out there calling bullshit on clipless pedals in general, even before I had the idea for the the catalyst pedal, right? I've been this huge flat pedal advocate because I realized, like, Oh, we've been lied to about the advantages of clipless pedals, and you don't need them, right? Like, you can be a great writer now, again, if we're talking about, like, at the top, top, top, where, like, you know, a lot of money's on the line for, like, 1% right, you might be able to make an argument for where clipless pedals could have a place there. Yeah, right. But like, there, that's not this big thing. And that was another conversation I had that really made me start rethinking stuff. As I was talking with this guy, Jared Graves, who was like a big time mountain biker Pro. And I was like, man, you know, where's all this, the studies and stuff on, like, clipless pedals and, and he's like, ah, you know? He's like, they don't exist. He's like, you know, they don't. In fact, he was from Australia. He's like, at The Australia Institute of Sport, like, the the record for the highest power output ever recorded was a guy on flat pedals. I'm like, What the fuck right? Like, why don't we hear about that?

Scott Groves  28:40  
But, but by James knows, but by James isn't sponsoring, right? The writers and paying them $100,000 a year to advertise their clipless pedals. Totally. So there's another problem. There's another problem, right? And it's funny, I want to bring this story in, because you and I have talked about this off air of like, you get these people that want to buy the toys because they've got more money than since they want to buy the toys that they think are making them 1/10 of 1% better. And you look at them and you're like, Dude, you need to lose your style. You're just not good enough. You're just not good enough. Or you need to lose 30 pounds. You're talking about trying to pick up grams on your equipment when you're carrying around a 30 pound home or Simpson belly. Take care of your fitness. Was why you started MTB strength training. Take care of your fitness first. That's gonna get you the biggest jump over buying the new handlebar that's 18 grams lighter or whatever.

James Wilson  29:28  
Yeah, no, totally. Man, that's That's it. And people, the other thing they'll do is they want to use equipment as a status symbol. So that's another problem, right? With this whole like, serious mountain bikers ride clipless pedals, like you're like, that's a status symbol. And so you roll up on the trail and you've got on a pair of catalyst pedals, like, we literally had a guy because we do a 60 day money back guarantee. Like we're the only product in the entire cycling industry that actually has a money back guarantee. We get very low rates of returns. Because once people try these things, they're like, oh shit. Like this. Is the way to do it. You know, if anything, they start ordering more for their other bikes. We had a guy return a pair, and he told us this because his riding buddies were making fun of him so badly that he just couldn't take it anymore.

Scott Groves  30:11  
So he knew there was a benefit. Probably felt better, probably lower chance of knee injury, because you're not clipped in, making your leg move in weird ways, because you can just kind of self adjust when you're riding on these and he's like, I rather give all that up because my friends are mocking me so badly, totally, totally. So I want to shift to the business side of it, because a lot of people have a lot of great ideas, yeah, but they don't take it to mold prototype, trademark, physical product, get the website up. Can you think back to those early days of like, okay, I got this idea, Honey, we're going to spend a lot of money to get prototypes and figure out shipping in China, which I hear is no joke, or Taiwan or wherever, getting these made. We're going to we're going to start a brand. We're going to get incorporated. I got to learn how to build a website. I got to learn how to do e commerce. That's not a small undertaking. And I wonder how many, like, million dollar ideas have died on the vine because people don't take that next step to start the business. So can you walk through? How long was that process? How long? How much did you spend? What did it look like? How the hell did you convince your wife? Because I know she's a pretty practical person, yeah, by the way, James wife, also a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, also beats my ass every I can conceptualize both of us. Yeah, I can conceptualize when a guy your size beats me, but when like 140 pound girl just manhandles me, it's like it really messes with my ego. But that's just means I have more to go on the journey. So can you go back in time and talk about how long was the journey to actually make this thing a reality?

James Wilson  31:34  
Yeah, yeah. So from idea to production model was probably about 18 months. Okay? Like having it where I could send out to people to buy, which is like, really fast, for sure, but there was a lot of, and I will say, like this is where, like, you spending your time accruing unique skills and building relationships with people pays off in unseen ways down the road. Because, like, if I'd have had that idea without being bike James first, it would have been a lot harder to do. So I was definitely able to leverage my experience, my list, my contacts and stuff like that for all that. So like, you know, I like to say, like, I had the original idea and then, like, the good Lord, just kept putting people on my pathway to help facilitate this process. But this

Scott Groves  32:24  
is why people can become an overnight success, right? Because they, for 10 years, have been building an email list and doing physical training and giving out freebies and like, just being a good human beings, yeah. It's like, yeah, 18 months to do the product. But it was probably 10 years of business experience and 30 years of physical knowledge that got you to be able to do it?

James Wilson  32:42  
No, totally, yeah. So, but yeah. So I had the idea at first. I was very skeptical of it, because I'm like, man, like, is it really going to make that big of a difference? Is like, a longer pedal really going to matter? And so my first thing I did was found somebody at a 3d print a plastic block that I could just stick an axle in and pedal around the parking lot. I was like, what's the lowest cost? Lowest cost way to try this? And so that was it. And so, but from the very first pedal stroke, I was like, Oh, shit, this is different. So I couldn't take the plastic explain real quick why the pedal stroke is different. So, like, so if I if you are on a normal pedal, and you've got, like, a single pressure point, right? No matter where you put it, you're pushing down. You see, if I if it's centered over the axle, the pedal doesn't move. That's extremely uncomfortable. That creates a lot of problems. So most riders will shift the ball the foot forward a little bit. And so once you do that, you start pushing down, and it starts creating this forward toe tipping thing, and you don't have the back end of the arch supported. So if the back end of the arch isn't supported properly, then your your, you know, plantar fascia and your Achilles tendon, your ankle starts getting stiff to try to help support that. It creates uneven, you know, tension and pressure through the knees. You're not able to use your hips as effectively. That's like, why? In the gym, you're told to, like, make sure you're driving through your heels. Through your heels. Because that's what you know, your hips, the where the hamstrings and glutes meet. That's your strongest, most powerful muscle in the body. So you want to make sure that that thing's being recruited, and it's only going to be able to be optimally recruited if your heel is supported, if the back end of the arch is supported. And so it creates all sorts of like kinetic chain issues, not having the back end of the arch supported. And so once you are able to support both ends, if you're standing on this in the arch, you're centered. And so both the back end and the front end of the arch are supported. Now when you press into the pedal, you can see there's no forward tipping right, like, I can create pressure forward or backward if I need to, but like, it's not happening from the pressure going in there. Yeah. And so, and the pedal body is supporting my whole foot. This aluminum body is stiffer than the stiffest carbon sole shoe out there, right? So even, even the stiffest carbon sole is going to have a little bit of flex to it. And so there's zero flex in this. Pedal body, and so you can be in these things, in flip flops. That was another aha moment when I jumped on these things and flip flops, and I jumped up and, like, sprinted in them, and I was like, Dude, this is insane. Like, my toes don't feel like they're in danger. I don't feel like my foot's gonna fly off the pedal. I'm laying down massive power and flip flops and so, but yeah, so now your every bit of pressure that's going into the pedal is going into the pedal stroke. You're not losing it through, through the arch flexing, or even a little bit of flex in your in your stiff soled shoe, and it feels like you're standing on the ground still. Yeah. So when you stand up, it's very comfortable. It's a totally different experience than standing up where you're balanced on the ball your foot and so, so standing up is much better. And then, you know, like, said, it takes a lot of pressure off the rest of the kinetic chain. Like, that's one of the biggest pieces of feedback that we get. Besides, like, the performance benefits is how people that have had pain related to cycling for years and have done everything bike fits the, you know, everything they can cannot get it to go away. We've had people that were literally ready to quit riding because they were just tired of dealing with the pain. They try our pedals, and within a few rides, the pain is gone. Because, you know, once that whole kinetic chain that's working together, once you support the foot properly, the rest of the kinetic chain can work properly. And so a lot of knee issues and low back issues and ankle issues that people suffer when they're riding bikes is simply because the kinetic chain is trying to compensate for the shitty foot support. And so once you support the foot properly, now the rest of the body can can move the the right way. And so it just yeah, like your very first pedal stroke on these things, you're like, this is totally different. This is a completely different experience than what I'm used to. And so it was enough to get me thinking, like, okay, there's something here, but a parking lot is one thing I need to take them out on the trail. So I found somebody to make me an aluminum version of that plastic block. Man, I call them the tanks. Man, they were just these giant fucking things, and they were so ugly. But I was able to, you know, it was, again, cheapest iteration to try the to try it at the next level, right? I think that's probably, you know, one lesson there is like, instead of like, trying to, like, jump to the end, like, what's the cheapest way I can test this idea? Does it work? Okay, well, what's the next cheapest way that I can test the next level? And so, because it may not be a million dollar idea, right? And so if you throw all your chips on in and it turns out to not be good, then you've kind of screwed yourself. And so by making these small bets, right? That's another term that gets thrown around in the business world, like, you know, make big make a bunch of small bets. One of them is going to pay off. A bunch of them are going to lose, but one of them will eventually pay off. And then that's where you want to, like, double down and start, like, feeding all your money into and so I was just making small bets along the way, you know, went out on my first show ride on them, and was like, Dude, this is crazy. I was like, literally climbing, you know, a climb that I knew very well in like, a higher gear than usual, even though these pedals weighed probably twice as much as, like my normal pedals did. And, you know, the sending felt great. Like, I was like, Dude, this is a totally different riding experience. It's not riding experience. It's not just a different pedal like, this is a totally different experience on my bike. And so I, you know, then I had a buddy of mine who's like, Dude, you can't show those things to anyone. They're ugly as hell. Like, you're already going to be fighting people. Like, not liking this idea. Like, you know, don't, don't, don't go out there with the tanks. Like, so I went back to the same guy, and again, this is just one of these weird things, man, like, he was like, man, I've been thinking about your pedal, and I had this idea for a design. So let me yeah, we'll make one that looks like this. And you tell me what you think. And I was like, Okay, sounds good. And I come back. He's like, Yeah, you know, I'm ready for you come back, and I come back. And he had this design, like, people pay 1000s and 1000s of dollars for people to design a product, and I had this dude just fucking do it for me. He had this idea for the for the design, and so I had, like, basically a rough, you know, raw aluminum version of this, and he had one of them, and he's like, I've quit my job here, so I can't finish the other one. But here you go. He goes, if these things work out and you produce them, just give me a pair, right? Like, that's all I want. I was like, dude, all right, brother. Like, holy crap. And so, you know, because

Scott Groves  39:17  
to get somebody to, like, 3d design this and then mill it. I mean, you could spend $10,000 just getting the prototype.

James Wilson  39:23  
Yeah, yeah. So again, the guy, you know, the guy knew me through MTV strength training systems, like, you know, so there was, like, some good will, like, built up through that. Does he have like, a lifetime free membership to MTB strength training? Yeah, man, whatever he wants. Man, right? He's my boy. So, um, but yeah, so he'll, he only handed me one of them, and he's like, so I had to go find someone else and be like, you know, found some, like, old dude doing fucking, you know, CNC machining out of this freaking, you know, warehouse or whatever. And I was like, Dude, I need you to make me another one of these. And, you know, gave him the specs for the internals. Because what I would do is I would rip my other pedals apart and take. The internals out of that, the bearings and the axle and all that stuff, and then put them in my prototypes. And so, you know, I'm really like assembling these things out in the garage at night. And so, so I got a good looking prototype, and then that's when I started going out and sharing them with people. And people were interested. So I had a few more prototypes made up. And so I started getting them out to, like, different people to get feedback. And like, everyone was giving me the same feedback. Like, do these things are fucking amazing? Like, I had one dude who literally refused to give me the prototypes back. He's like, I cannot go back to riding my old pedals after trying these things. How much do you want for them? I'm like, dude, these things are expensive, man. Like these prototypes, like these one off prototypes. You know, they're not, they're not, like, cheap. He's like, give me a number. I'm like, 400 bucks. He's like, sold and freaking gave me $400 cash to, like,

Scott Groves  40:50  
so your fir, your very first sale was, like, your second or third pair of prototypes,

James Wilson  40:54  
yeah, yeah, for 400 bucks, man. And I was like, Dude, this is like, I'm onto something. I'm on to something. Like, if somebody's willing to just, they refuse to give me the prototypes back because they don't want to go back. I'm like, I'm onto something here. So, you know, so I spent a few more months like, just kind of, like, getting some feedback on, I'm getting some ideas for pen placement and things like that and so. And then I forget exactly how I got introduced to him, but I knew a rider who was sponsored by vP pedals. And VP is one of the largest third party manufacturers of bike parts in the world. And so he he knew their American like contact, their American representative. And that guy knew me from I used to write for it's called pinkbike.com it's the largest mountain biking website in the world. And so I did a monthly training article for them for like, a year and a half. And so this guy knew me as bike James. You know, I had, like, a reputation the industry is a crazy flat pedal guy, but he had used some of my workout tips on pink bike. And he was like, Dude, it really helped with, like, some back pain and stuff like that. So he was, like, totally pumped to, like, help me out. And so he went to bat for me a ton with these guys and, and, yeah, so he helped me get set up, get the mold made. It's an extrusion mold. So it comes through, like, you think, like Play Doh, right? When you run play doh through a little like mold, and it comes out, it they come out like that. So it's not like a, like a, you know, they don't like pour it in and it in and it comes out your injection mold on an ejection mold. So it's a lot cheaper to do it that way, because then it just comes out and it has, like, the rough shape, and then they just see and see the, you know, machine, the rest of it. And so, yeah, so he, you know, worked with me to get my first production prototype made. And, man, I still remember I went to back when they did enter bike, the big bike show they'd have in Vegas every year, which is basically an excuse for a bunch of riders to get together and just party and get fucked up. And but he was like, Yeah, I'm gonna be, they're gonna be an inter bike, and they can give them to you there. And so I went to enter bike that year, and I met them and got the production prototype and and you were shown to people, and they're like, dude, this thing's crazy and, and

Scott Groves  43:01  
so like, how much bigger than a normal pedal

James Wilson  43:03  
is this? So when I first started, your normal flat pedal was it's no wider than a normal flat pedal because you don't need width, right? It's not with this the problem. You just need a pedal wide enough to for your foot to stand on. It's the length that's the issue. And so your standard flat pedal was about three and three quarter inches long. And so now, again, this is funny. The industry still, nobody will copy my design, because that would be admitting that they were wrong this whole time. But, and you have a trademark, right? And I've got trademark on that specific design. Well, I mean, yeah, patent on it. And so a patent, um, but the so most flat pedals now that come out are at least four inches long, if not a little longer. Nobody's gone the full five inches of contact space that we have. And we've got an XL for people with, like, size 1213, plus feet. That's even bigger. And so, yeah, so it's probably about a, you know, an inch to three quarters of an inch longer than your standard flat pedal. And the problem is, though, is when they go longer, they also go wider, which exposes more of the side of the pedal body to hitting rocks and stuff like that. And which is why I never rode, like the oversized flats, because I was like, dude, I'd clip a freaking rock. You know, where I was riding is, like, super technical terrain. So, so you don't want wider, you want longer. So there, but, yeah, man, that it like, there's a it. It's funny, you don't think it make that big of a difference, right? But it's like boiling water, right? Like, 211 degrees, it's still just hot water. 212, is boiling. So sometimes that one degree makes all the difference in the world. So you're thinking, like, man, you know, it's like an inch to half an inch really going to make that big of a difference? Like, yes, it does. Like, when you hit the sweet spot, when you get the length right, it totally changes the complete experience for your foot and how you're able to stand on the pedal apply force, you know, just the whole nine yards. Like, everything improves when you've got proper foot support.

Scott Groves  44:55  
So you got your prototype. How do you go to market? Like we you know, there's already all these little great touch points. Where, like, the goodwill of bike James, the goodwill of James the human being, is, like, really putting the wheels in motion, right? So I think, like, a business tip for people that are watching this is like, you know, be ready to, like, give a lot of goodwill, and then at some point you got to ask for the ask, right? You know, you got to lean in for the business kiss and, like, get some of that goodwill back and leverage some of your relationships. How do you go to market and be like, All right, I know this works. We've got a cool prototype now. I gotta start selling them before I place an order. You know, a $20,000 order to do. Are these made in Taiwan or, yeah, in Taiwan? Yeah. So it's like, you know, you're gonna be writing a check for $20,000 which you probably didn't have to Taiwan. So like, how do you go to market and get proof of concept that you can actually sell

James Wilson  45:41  
these so that was where my bike, James, email list came into play. And so again, that's like we've talked about this. Man, the power of a business is in their email list. Like that is number one. Like, people get all infatuated with social media and stuff like that. But like, man, your email list is your most valuable asset, and how you treat that email list is, is like, the second most valuable thing, right? And so the so, like, Man, I had people always telling me, like, Dude, you give away too much stuff for free. You just give away way too much info for free. I'm like, Man, I don't care, right? Like, I just, I want to help people. And so, like, I've literally had people over the years buy my program saying, like, Man, I don't really want the program. I just want to give something back to you, like, you've just given away so much stuff, and I've benefited so much from it, like, I just want to find a way to support you, so I'm going to buy this program. And so I had just built a ton of goodwill with my list, between just all the free information, I gave away, all the research I was doing on flat pedals and all that stuff. So, so I think about like 12,000 people on my list at the time, and so I go to my email list and I'm like, I've got this idea for a pedal. Here's the idea, you know, here's the logic behind it. Here's been my experience with it so far. You know, I'm going to do a pre sell on them to raise money to get my first order. And man, I hit sin. And just, I did not know what to expect, and we had like, freaking 200 people, like, take me up on the offer. And so, like, we were doing it for 99 bucks as a pre sale. And you know, we got 200 people, so we raised like, 20 some odd $1,000 within a few days. So I basically did, like a Kickstarter campaign to my own email list. And for

Scott Groves  47:25  
people that don't know, like the value of that email list, you got, like the Kickstarter or, God forbid, you got to go raise money for private equity or a family member, you're going to be paying either somewhere between 10 and 20% interest or 10 and 20% VIG to a site like Kickstarter. So it's like, the power of all that goodwill and all that free, $49 programs you gave away and helping people that ended up being, like, your VIG for having your own

James Wilson  47:50  
Kickstarter. Yeah, yeah, that's why, like, I've never had to take on an investor. I never had to take out, like, a loan to get this started, because I was able to, like, raise the money that for the initial order from my email list. And so, so, yeah, and, you know, because I did work for pink bike, I knew the the the editor there. And so, you know, he was a fan of mine. He knew he was, like, a fan of flat pedals. Do, like, at one point we were having a conversation, this is, like, the editor for the largest mountain biking website in the world, and we were talking about something, and he was like, Dude, look, we know clipless puddles are a problem. We know that they're oversold, but saying something is just going to piss people off and it's not going to do any good. I'm like, What the fuck are we doing here, man? So like, even, like, you know these guys know that these things are being oversold, but they don't want to say anything because they don't want to piss off their advertisers, right? But like, secretly, he's like, the supporter of mine. He's like, he's down with the flat pedal revolution. He's, you know, a fan of bike. James, so, um, so he, you know, wrote, he like, let me get a press release announcing the release of the pedal on page one of pink bike, which is extremely hard to do, especially if you're not one of their top advertisers. And so that helped a ton. Of course, that's when I, like, the backlash started. Man, the fucking backlash from the keyboard warriors and industry experts and everybody is like, this is a stupid idea. It's gonna make you less athletic. It's gonna make you flat footed. Like they just had like, a bajillion reasons for why this was a dumb idea. And I'm like, trying to, like, go on there and respond to all these comments about it and, like, finally I realized, like, Dude, there's nothing I can say that's gonna convince these people. Like, if they'd hate it, then they're just gonna hate it. Like, so. But again, I got my, you know, got the order in, started sending them out to people, and just started getting flooded with emails from people just being like, holy shit. I've cleaned this climb that I've never made before. I made it through this technical section I've never made before. I've, you know, my knee pain went away after using them. Just like, just so much feedback from writers who actually tried them that I was like, okay, like, this is, this is a thing. Like, this thing's real. And, you know, the other thing is, I did a, you know, at the time, it was a 30 day money back guarantee, but we've bumped it up to 60. So I just want to, like my job. I just want to, like, take away the risk, right? Like, I want you to feel like you can try these things risk free. And, you know, you know, and if you don't like them, like one, I don't want to keep your money if it's not you, if you don't like them, right? I want you to love them. And so, you know, I think that helped people as well, just knowing, like, okay, I can try this new wacky idea, and if it doesn't work for me, I can get my money back right.

Scott Groves  50:30  
And so, comparatively speaking to other bike products, this is pretty inexpensive,

James Wilson  50:34  
dude for like, performance improvement to price, it is by far the biggest value that you can possibly invest on your bike, yeah? I mean, by far. I mean, like, forks are like 1000 $1,500 wheel sets are like one to $2,000 like, the other things that you can invest in on your bike that you'll actually notice a difference in on the trail are all like, you know, four plus figure investments, yeah. And so, you know, this is like $159 and you're gonna everything, every power efficiency, your technical skills, your comfort, like, everything across the board improves with it. So it's like, by far the best value. And so, like, trying to communicate to that to people is also another part of my my marketing strategy, is helping them understand that. Like, you know, yeah, like, you know, you could go on Amazon and buy a cheap pair of $20 plastic pedals, but you're not going to get the performance benefit from it. And so if you're wanting to actually see performance benefits, then you invest in this and you're going to see massive it's totally worth every penny. It's worth more than what you're paying for it.

Scott Groves  51:39  
So I want to go back to the haters as a, as a, as a business lesson, because I feel like we're in a current political, business, societal time in history where it's like, some people would tell you to lean into that and be antagonistic and be rude and fight back and whatnot. Other people would be like, Hey, man, I'll send you a pair, and you can decide for yourself, other people will be like, yep, 50% of the market is going to hate me. 50% of the market is going to love me. And I know from experience, I used to take it because I have a business coaching platform that we've been doing for 10 years. When people used to drop out of coaching, I would take it really personally, yeah, like, I couldn't help but be mad at myself. Be mad at them. Be mad at my staff. What did we do wrong? What could we have done better? Why are they? Why are they such a loser who's dropping out of coaching like, I would be torn up for days when somebody like, dropped out of coaching, because that's my little baby, and so when this is your little baby, you've put like time, energy, 20 years of like athletic experience into this. How did you choose to deal with the haters. And do you wish you would have done that any differently, man,

James Wilson  52:45  
you know, it's so at the time, I was very argumentative. Like, I came up in the flame wars of the forums back in the late 90s, right? Like, it was a fine art to, like, just flaming people, right? And so, like, I was very antagonistic at first, and that was, like, that was part of my brand, like Mike James, is this, like, rebel anti establishment, like in your face kind of guy and so, so I definitely leaned into that a little bit when I first started with peddling innovations. But eventually, you know, age and just stuff start maturing, maturity, and you're just like, Okay, this is, why am I arguing with some fucking kid on his in his parents basement, you know, on a keyboard. So the way that I look at it is, like, one your critics can sometimes they've got a point, right? And so, like, just totally dismissing them isn't necessarily the right thing to do, because, like, they may have a point, there may be a lesson that you can learn. Like, maybe there was something you fucked up with your coaching group that you can improve, right? I'm sure, I'm sure there were some lessons that you taught for sure from it. So you don't want to just like, ignore them and dismiss them, but you can't like, also, you know, take it personally, because, you know, they've got their issues, and there's things going on in their life that you don't know, right? And so what I finally arrived at was like, I'm gonna respond, but I'm not trying to respond to them. I'm trying to respond so that the person looking at the exchange is being influenced, right? There's someone who's sitting on the fence, and they're like, I don't know if I want to try these pedals. And they go in the check out a post on them, and they and they go down the comments, and they see, you know people you know saying, Oh, this is stupid for this reason or that reason. Like, my response is actually more written to that person who's reading that than necessarily the person who's who posted the comment, because I know that I'm not gonna do like, actually, I learned this in the fitness world with like, CrossFitters, right? Like, you're never going to convince a crossfitter that CrossFit is bullshit. And again, I'm not saying it is or not, right? CrossFit evolved a lot and but it's but you definitely have a culty following around CrossFit. Like, if you're a CrossFitter, there's nothing that someone can say that's going to convince you to not do CrossFit, right?

Scott Groves  54:58  
We'll see the same thing in JIT. Do Right? Like, once you fall in love with it, it doesn't matter what the

James Wilson  55:02  
criticism Yes, so there's so again, that was like some advice I gotten from somebody in the fitness world is like, you know, I'm not writing this response to try to convince them. I'm writing this for the person who's on the fence who's reading this exchange, because I want them. I don't want to just leave the criticism there and not answer it. So I want to have a good response to it that maybe will help the person who's on the fence understand, like, why that's not a good criticism. So I think that's a good way to look at is like, don't, don't. Try to convince the person the hater, to not hate you. Convince the person who's watching this exchange to not hate you. Like, that's, you know, the way that I start going about it.

Scott Groves  55:40  
Yeah, I have a bad tendency to also have a little too much snark in my life. So I can, I can definitely be the one where, if you were on the outside reading that, you'd be like, Man, this guy, Scott's kind of a jerk. Like, I don't know if I want to work with him, because, like, I can immediately go to the flame war thing, yeah,

James Wilson  55:54  
yeah, no, there's definitely that. And there's, you know, there's a fine art of, you know, slipping in a little intellectual insult in the way that you're wording things like, you know, I'll still try and and if I can make someone look stupid, then I'll try and do that. But you know, you're not, if you come across you're like, You're such an idiot. What do you got? Like, a third grade education still living in your mom's basement? You know, here's all the reasons why. Like, you're right. Like the person reading that is like, maybe like, influenced by your, how you're coming across there, right? Oh, this guy's way too defensive. Like, what's his thing? So, you know, like, I said, like, coming at it that way, where it's like, I'm trying to, like, you know, have the people who are watching this argument from the outside or trying to influence them more than I'm trying to influence the person I'm arguing with.

Scott Groves  56:37  
Yeah, that's, that's a good lesson, man. So I want to fast forward a little bit, right? Because, like, you get your initial proof of CRO initial proof of concept, you basically get, like, your $20,000 funding round. Now they're starting to sell. You've got your huge email list from MTB strength trainings, and you're doing some editorial articles, and you're probably in all the forums responding. Talk about where the business is today, how it's evolved. Of like, I think now, are you on

James Wilson  57:01  
Shopify or, yeah, we got Shopify site. Okay, so, so

Scott Groves  57:05  
how's the business evolved? So you can get the product out there to the most people.

James Wilson  57:09  
You know, that's a, that's an interesting question, because we it's, it's a interesting time in the bike industry right now. So, like, covid was very, very good to the bike industry, the entire bike industry, myself included, benefited from, you know, people being forced to find outdoor things to do, and so you would sell stuff without even having to try and then. But I knew I'm looking at this from the outside, and I'm like, Dude, this is an artificial bubble. Like, this is not how it's gonna be going forward. So I'm not going to, like, you know, take on a bunch of debt to try to get a bunch more inventory and, like, grow, grow, grow, to try and sell as many puddles as I can, because a lot of companies right now got caught with their pants down. Like the demand dropped off. Because now people can go back to like, you know, their indoor stuff. And so the demands gone down, but they're stuck with this structure and, you know, inventory, and all this

Scott Groves  58:01  
more expensive house, more expensive truck, a warehouse full of material,

James Wilson  58:06  
and, like, a big office and hired staff, and, like, yeah, they've got, like, you know, a bunch of inventory that now that they're having trouble going through. And so the entire bike industry is down. And so we've definitely seen that happen. And so that's where, like, I've really had to, like, you know, double down on the the core skills of, you know, marketing and, you know, building my email list and really kind of going back to, like, those, those fundamental things. And so, like, just like, you know, a couple weeks ago, I completely rewrote my, you know, my sales page for for the pedal, and I, you know, just, you know, redid it. And it's like, you know, yeah, now we're seeing better, you know, better response from that. And so it's just, you know, that's so now I'm like, having to actually, like, work harder at the sales and marketing side. Then, then I was, but it's still just a matter of, you know, you got to get eyeballs to your site. And whether that's like, through organic traffic, or you're doing paid ads, or you're like, you know, going into forums, like, whatever you're doing to, like, get people to realize, oh, this thing exists. And then they go and they check it out, and then it's your job to convince them that, like, this is a great thing for you to part with your hard earned money to invest in, and so, and then that's where, like, you know, a lot of the sales and marketing stuff comes in. And I think a lot of times, you know, something I struggle with, like, I'm a very logical person, right? Like, I want to know the logical reason behind stuff, yeah. And so, like, I would originally, that's how I would approach selling the pedal was on, like, the science and the logic and the rationale behind it. And, you know, as I, you know, study more, and I got better at this, I really started to lean more into like, man, you got to take people on an emotional journey. Yeah, right. There's got to be an emotional appeal to what you're doing. You need to look at this from like this. Perspective, like they're the ones sitting there reading this, like, how do you know, what's the conversation going on in their mind? And then how do I, like, you know, enter that conversation? Like, if they're thinking something and you're like, saying it better than they said themselves on their on your sales letter, they're like, Man, this person was really, he really knows me. He really knows what I'm going through. Like, he must understand, you know what I'm you know how to help me out. And so, like, pivoting more towards that, that storytelling, you know, like said, like now on my sales letter, like, I go through the story behind how I invented, there's a whole, like, Hero arc, and, you know, underdog tone to it. And, you know, a lot of like, really trying to, like, you know, the the benefits need to be framed in a way of, like, what's in it for them, right? Like, it's not more power, it's climbing the same hill in a higher gear, right? It's not better stability. It's like being able to charge through a rock garden that you've never gone through before, made it all the way. And, like, you know, doing it the first time, right? It's not, like, less pain. It's being able to finish a ride and getting off the bike and not hobbling around and feeling like you can jump on the bike and do it again the next day, instead of having to, like, recover for a few days because you're hurting so bad. Yeah. So, like, that's what people that's how you communicate to people effectively to sell your product is, like, what's in it for them and frame it in like, the emotional framework of what they're looking for, rather than, like, trying to convince them logically why what you have is the best thing to for them to invest in.

Scott Groves  1:01:36  
Dude, this. This reminds me so much, and I'm going to date myself here. This reminds me so much of the first Tony Robbins like sales mastery training I went through that I think were on CD ROMs. They weren't even on CDs that you could like, play in your car, right? And his whole thing is, people buy on emotion, and then they justify with logic. Yes, right? Yeah. And then the other thing you said there that I know he said in that training, is that if you can articulate the problem better than they can, they'll just assume you have the answer, yes, yeah. So if you talk about their pain, and you can talk about, like, man, do you really want to go to the bar after your four hour ride with the guys and be hobbling to the bathroom? Like, that's a real thing that I know cyclists deal with. Yeah, they don't care about, well, look at this graph, study of the plot points of the power distribution. Like, they'll justify to their wife, like, oh, yeah, I bought these $200 pedals because, you know, I'm gonna get more power and blah blah. But what they're really thinking and emotionally connected to is, like, I'm sick of looking like a moron hobbling to the bathroom when I'm sitting in the bar with

James Wilson  1:02:29  
guys. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's totally it, man. I that's the thing, man. There's this thing that I've heard, like, methods are many, principles are few. Methods may change, but principles never do. Like, that's the thing, like, the principles behind what works, right? Like this, the things that work in sales and marketing, they've worked since the dawn of time, right? It's in that, that emotional pill, telling stories, like all those things. So now the the methods change, right? Like now we're able to use the internet and, you know, your Tiktok or Instagram or whatever that is, right? Like, the method itself changes, but the principles behind what works never do and so, but people get, like, caught up in, like, you know, the tactics instead of their strategy, right? It's like, what's your strategy? Tactics should be be related to your overall strategy. And people just get like, my tactic is to like, I got a post on Instagram every day, you know, okay, that's a good tactic. But like, what's the strategy behind that tactic? Like, are you trying to like, you know, what? What story are you trying to tell? How are you trying to connect with people emotionally through these things? So, you know, again, you see this with, you know, like, again, like, my I'm a fitness guy. Like, that's the thing is, like, I'm always going to look at things from a fitness perspective. And so, you know, you see a lot of people on online, and they're just, like, posting, you know, workout demos, and it's like, Okay, that's great. But like, what people want to hear is, like, you know, like, how is this going to help them, right? Like, what's the story behind, how, why you are doing it this way? What's the story behind, like, how this helped a client, or something like that? So like, mixing those things in, along with some of the more technical stuff, because you do want to, like, show people you're an expert, right, right? But they, we both know people who are, like, technically idiots, but they're extremely successful because they are so good at that emotional appeal and storytelling and like connecting with people that that's that's really what matters. And so you can be mad all day long, being like, my product is better than their product, but man, if they're better telling a story and they're better at connecting with your guys's audience than you are, like, they're always going to win. And you can either get pissed at them, and you can be mad and rage at reality, or you can, like, lean into it and be like, okay, like, what are they doing that? I'm not right. So it's like, you know, there's, you know, again, in the fitness thing, like, people get mad at McDonald's, right? Like, Oh, they're so unhealthy and stuff like that. But like, dude, McDonald's is really successful. Like, what? McDonald's doing that's making them successful. And are there some lessons that I can take from what they're doing and apply it to my own business? Yeah, so, you know, that's the that's the thing, man, is just understanding what are the principles behind sales and marketing. And, you know, again, that's the other thing. Is, like, knowing what business are you really in, right? So, like, if you like, you think, like, Oh, I'm in the business of selling pedals. Like, no, no, that's not my business. My business is trying to, like, emotionally connect with people, to, you know, let them know, like, why this is going to change their life. Like, that's what business I'm in. I'm in I'm in the I'm in the business of changing people's lives. I'm in the business of, like, writing transformation and so, like, I need to be able to communicate that not, oh, I got a great pedal. So, like, what, what business are you really in? And again, I think it's where a lot of entrepreneurs fuck up, because, like, they think they know what business they're in, but they that's not the business they're actually in, right? Like, we were talking with, I was talking with our buddy, mark the dentist guy. And you know, every time I talk to him, he's talking about, you know, dealing with staff and stuff like that. And I was like, Yeah, dude, like, you think you're in the dental business. You're not. You're in, like, the people management business. You're in, like, the staffing business. Like, that's what business you're in is, like, being able to attract and manage good talent. Like, that's what makes your office run. Well, yeah, you know, you can be the best dentist in the world, but if you're not good at that, then you're always going to struggle.

Scott Groves  1:06:24  
I tell you. I'll tell you. I also shout out to modern dentistry in Vegas. I also go to Mark. He's also my dentist. And like I I have, I'm sure he's a good dentist. I have no clue. I know his office staff is awesome. Yeah, they make me feel good. The check in is digital. I didn't have to fill out, you know, five forms of my medical history, and duplicate it was one time on the internet, and now they have it every time. It's like, they just make it easy to go get a horrendous process, which is dental surgery or getting your teeth cleaned or getting a filling. They make that process so easy because his staff is so good. It's like, it's not surprising to me that they're wildly successful, and I have no idea if Mark does better feelings than the next guy, but I like the people. I like the office we're in relationship. They're personable enough to, like, make kind of funny jokes that resonate with me, but not, don't make it feel unprofessional. It's like whatever he's doing with staffing. I got to have him in to talk about how he found his staff, because they're, they're world

James Wilson  1:07:19  
class, yeah, yeah, no. But that's, you know, again, just going back to that, like, that's, you know, I don't know if he quite, like, consciously realizes that's the actual business he's in or not. But, like, that's the business he's in, yeah, is like, you know, recruiting and managing talent and so, but yeah, like, What business are you actually in, right? Like, if you are, you know, you have a window cleaning business. It's like, I'm in the window cleaning business, like, now, you're in the business of, like, you know, helping people feel more like they want to feel good about their house. Like, you know, there's some, some emotional reason right behind what they're doing. And you're probably in the staffing and talent business. And so, you know, that's the, that's the thing that's like, that, that the E Myth, you know, again, like a super old school thing. It's that, you know, the entrepreneur myth, and it's like, well, you get these technicians who are really good at what they do, so they think, I'll start a business doing this. And this is why most businesses fail, because they never make the transition from being a technician and doing the thing that they do into like, actually running a business and working on the things that make go behind making a successful business. So, like, once you start a business like you're no longer the technical thing that you do like you are now, you know, man, you got a bunch of hats that you got to wear, yeah. And so

Scott Groves  1:08:36  
it's like, market will tell you if that technical skill you have is worth money, right? But you don't make the money until you do all the other pieces you

James Wilson  1:08:42  
want to scale. Want to scale it. Like scaling it is where all those other pieces come in. And so again, and that's where, like, a lot of people struggle. And the reason why a lot of businesses fail is because they, they don't embrace that aspect of it, yeah, and, you know, and I've done that myself, right? Like, I've, I really, for a long time, like, fought against, you know, sales and marketing stuff, because, you know, had all these things, you know, these mental blocks about it. And finally I was like, man, like, that's what business I'm in. I've got to embrace it. Like, this is a skill that I need to develop. And then the cool thing is, like, once you develop this skill in one area, then you can apply that skill in different areas. So like, you know, my wife is starting, you know, a fitness business for women over 40. So it's like, now I can take these things and help her write better sales copy, help her understand better how to appeal to people emotionally. So it's because

Scott Groves  1:09:36  
the market she's trying to go after. Like the women over 40, they don't care whether they're doing deadlifts or squats or whatever. They just want to get stronger so that they don't get osteoporosis, right? Or they look better, look later into life, yeah, or whatever. Whatever, the story they're telling themselves is they could care less whether she works with bands or weights or body weight or whatever, like she's the technical expert, but to get the client, she's got to tell the story that resonates with

James Wilson  1:09:57  
that woman, right? Right? It's like, you know, sell the scissors. Not the stake. Yeah, right. Like, that's, that's what you got to understand and you have to embrace if you want to be successful in any business. Is that aspect there? But you know, that's another thing. Like you go to most websites like, don't, obviously, you want to take lessons from what most people are doing, but you also need to understand that most businesses aren't successful and they're not profitable, so like trying to copy everything that they do. So like, you go to an average e commerce site and it's very like, product heavy, right? You go to my site and it's a fucking sales letter, and I have marketers, any marketers that I deal with are always like, Dude, you got way too many words on this page. Like, this is way too much reading. This is way too long. And again, man, people that make a bajillion dollars in sales and marketing, like, they know they can't be too long. It can only be too boring, right? So, like, don't be afraid to to tell stories and to have words on your page, right? Like, like, yes, people have a short attention span, but people will also sit down and binge watch a Netflix series for eight hours, right? So, like, so which is it, right? Do we have short attention spans, or are you just boring them to death? So they're like, flipping on to the next thing. And so if you're telling a compelling story and you're connecting with them like, they'll read the whole fucking sales letter, yeah, and, or at least to the point where they're like, I'm convinced, and they hit the buy now button, right?

Scott Groves  1:11:24  
That's such a good lesson, because, I mean, you do your entire business from your laptop in your garage or your living room or whatever, you sell a physical product that I would think has no emotional connection, because it's just a piece of what is this? What is this aluminum? Yeah, it's just a piece of aluminum, right? It's just a piece of aluminum. Yeah, I would have thought with you coming in here, it's like, oh, it's all about the technical specs and the ROI and the click through rate and all that stuff. But it's like you're building a business, like, one story, one relationship at a time, which I think is just a great lesson for anybody that wants to open a business, especially if they're selling a physical product. Because I wouldn't have thought of that with you walking in here?

James Wilson  1:12:01  
Yeah, no, man, and that's that, that's that will help you differentiate yourself from the market. So if you're in an E commerce space, and everyone else is just, like, got the standard, you know, Shopify website that's just a bunch of products with, like, you know, buzz words and stuff on it, like, and then you come in and you've got something different, right? It's like, the Seth Godin book, Purple Cow. Yeah, right. Book, yeah. So it's like, you know, if you're every driving along and you're looking at a bunch of cows, all of a sudden a Purple Cows are, you're like, Whoa, what's that, right? So it's like, your ability to be a Purple Cow, to do something different, will help you stand out. People will be like, Whoa, what's going on there? And then, if you are good at telling a story and connecting with people emotionally, then, like, you're going to be able to, like, get a place in people's hearts that, like your competitors don't, because they're not trying to like, they're not trying to, you know, become develop a relationship, or make these people feel like, Man, this person really understands me. They're just like, you know, oh, save 10% on our cool product. It's just like, everybody else's product, right? And it's like, man, that's one way to do it, right, but that's an extremely expensive way to go. Like, that's something I realized, which is a race to the bottom right? Well, I mean, that's like, you know, again, like, why I don't sponsor riders, why I don't buy a bunch of advertising, right? Because there's in the mountain biking world a lot of what, you know, you've got two pairs of pedals. How do you convince a rider that this pedal is better than this pedal? We try and convince them that, like, this is cooler. Like, look at the pro riders that use this thing. Look at the the cool like, fancy website that we've got, like, you know, this so you want to develop, and some, some companies have done very well for themselves, developing, like, you know, like we talked about, like, level black, right, right? And in Jiu Jitsu, and it's like, you know, they're a cool hot brand, right? They've done a very good job of creating that mystique around their brand. But, man, that is not sustainable. Like, the next cool hot brand is going to come along, right? And if you don't do a job of establishing some sort of, like, differentiating factor and telling stories and, like, connecting with people, then they're just gonna move on. Right? Like, I think it's one of the things that origin does really well. Like, origin tells a story behind their product, right? They've got some of the most expensive jiu jitsu gear that you can buy. But, man, you know, like, you know, man, they found these old, you know, weaving looms in a old barn that they had to, like, go get and like, you know, like there's a story. Like, they tell the story behind their business, and, like, why they're doing it that way, and stuff like that. And so, like, you feel this, like, connection with origin that, like, I don't feel with, you know, like, show your role, right? Like, you know, yeah, they dude,

Scott Groves  1:14:44  
origin, I've bought two for me, two for my son. So four pairs of $400 boots from origin, leather boots, yeah, I wear flip flops 99% of the time, yeah. And so, like, I have two beautiful pairs of $400 boots because. Like, I connected with their brand. I wanted to support them. I'm like, Oh, when I go out on a date, I'll wear some fancy, good looking boots that are really made to be work boots. Now my son, on the other hand, he works in a seafood warehouse, so he actually gets the use out of those boots. But yeah, they've connected with me on, like, an emotional Made in America down home, the way things used to be high quality and like, all spend the money for

James Wilson  1:15:21  
that, yep, yeah. So, like, origin set themselves up for a sustained level of success that, like, level black hasn't, yeah, right, and so, and that's why, like, you see these companies come and go, like we were talking about, like, dude, if level Black was smart, they'd sell right now, because it's going to there, it's going to fall off at some point, unless they change how they're approaching their marketing and what they're doing, like, it's going to change, yeah, and so there's going to come some other cool, hot brand. And so that's why, again, like, you want to be real careful about trying to position yourself as, like, the cool, hot brand, because, yeah, you may make it right, but you got a lot of competition in that space, and it's something else is going to come along eventually.

Scott Groves  1:16:02  
Yeah, yeah. It's almost like, If I could sum it all up the podcast, like, you don't want to be the sexiest or the cheapest, but if you have the deepest relationship with your clients, you're just

James Wilson  1:16:11  
going to win. Yeah, totally, man, yeah. And all that other stuff like you're saying, like, yeah, I gotta, you know, keep pay attention to click through rate and like, you know, like, all those technical numbers and stuff, like, yeah, they matter. But to me, like they should be a downstream, like, their success should be downstream of, like, doing this thing well, which is, like, telling a great story and connecting with people on an emotional level. And if you're doing that well, then like, these other things will reflect that. And so those are, like, the indicator of, like, are you doing a good job of that or not? And if those aren't where they need to be, then you're probably not doing that.

Scott Groves  1:16:47  
Yeah, dude, that's the way to end the podcast. Man. Thanks for being on, James. We're gonna have you on again soon. I could do a whole nother episode just digging into MTB strength training and the like, the way that you've built that list and the way that you're helping people achieve their physical goals. So we'll have you on talk about that. Yeah, for sure. Man, that would be great. Thanks for coming in on Sunday morning. Yeah, my pleasure, man, glad we both remembered eventually, talk soon. Okay, hey, it's Scott groves with the Henderson HQ podcast. I hope you got something out of that episode. If you enjoyed it. Please don't forget to like, comment and subscribe to the podcast. It really helps the show grow. And by the way, if you are a business owner, or you know, a business owner who has an interesting product, service or just an interesting backstory, please, please get in touch with us. Email us at the Henderson hq@gmail.com we would love to interview you, because that's what this show is all about. It's about building community, supporting local, individually owned businesses, and just making Henderson a great place to live. And don't forget, go to Henderson hq.com and make sure you sign up for our newsletter. We send out a once a week newsletter, no spam, about the most interesting local businesses, hot spots, restaurants, community events, thanks for watching the show. Really appreciate you. You.